Cancel Culture Unmasked: Insights with Sean BW Barker on Cultural Theory and Justice Reform

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, so, jay, sure, good to see you.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Hi, ryan, excellent to be here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, it's good.

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Speaker 1: It's good.

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Speaker 1: I was interested to get you on, to be fair, because I was just chatting when you had the description of what you like to talk about and what you like to do.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, like this, I've caught up a couple of your videos as well.

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Speaker 1: So it's interesting, sort of like the ins and outs of what you discuss, especially obviously regarded obviously the kind of me too thing, after all that sort of thing and bits about.

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Speaker 2: But if people who don't know who you are get a little bit of a brief outline of yourself showing what you actually do, Sure, yeah, I'm kind of a writer, artist and academic which is on my CV and until 2017, I was involved in the writing of like cultural theory and poetry, things like this, and I was a musician too.

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Speaker 2: I'm a musician, got 10 albums out.

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Speaker 2: I used to be a very artsy guy and then, after the Me Too thing, after I was running an arts centre, I've become much more akin to justice reform and about 2000,.

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Speaker 2: About this time last year, 18 months ago, I became the editor of the false allegations watch, which is a part of Empowering the Innocent, which runs out of University of Bristol.

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Speaker 2: So, in a nutshell, that's what I do.

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Speaker 2: I'm an artsy guy with an edge in justice reform.

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Speaker 1: I guess I'll how many out 10, 10 albums you've got released.

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Speaker 2: You can say six with four compilation albums, however you count these kind of things.

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Speaker 2: But I've got a bunch of material out there.

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Speaker 1: What's your musical instrument?

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Speaker 1: What should go to an instrument?

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Speaker 2: I'm a songwriter.

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Speaker 2: I can play guitar and piano, but I used to be like a bloke who stands there with guitar and bands.

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Speaker 2: So, frontman, but I'm not much of a performer, I'm a songwriter.

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Speaker 2: So art rock is the general catch all for what we're doing, talking eds, rocks and music.

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Speaker 1: You still play now.

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Speaker 1: You still they're going to dabble over the guitar now.

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Speaker 2: Less than I used to because of all the writing I'm doing basically, and you get a lot of your ideas out.

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Speaker 2: When you're younger, do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: So, but not that I'm very full of ideas, but I just I'm not so active anymore.

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Speaker 2: I don't drink anymore either, so that helped.

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Speaker 1: That's a weird good thing, isn't it?

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Speaker 1: I've recently just started playing the guitar.

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Speaker 1: Well, learning how to do it, I'll play the drums since I was a kid, but I'm just starting because my daughter's just she's learning the guitar, so she's only eight, so she's trying the hardest.

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Speaker 1: I went and got myself a guitar, so me and her are trying to play together and it's like if somebody was walking past, obviously, the front room and just seeing me and her, they'd be like my God, what are they?

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Speaker 1: Someone dying in there?

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Speaker 1: Who's getting killed?

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Speaker 1: Let's phone the police, because it's not music, just a shot of tell you.

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Speaker 2: That's how it's supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: When you're jamming, you know chaos, chaos.

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Speaker 1: So you've got a waddle.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say that I had an eclectic sort of like a past sort of thing, but once I want to delve into is obviously the more recent work with the kind of justice sort of thing you've been doing.

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Speaker 1: Where did this come from and how did it really kind of start?

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Speaker 2: I was running an arts centre in 2016 on the south coast here and that was at the high point of the Me Too movement and at that place, without going too much into too much personal detail, there were some allegations around that kind of subject and quite quickly, as the manager there, I had to basically do a crash course in law in how to handle allegations and such things and what was behind it, what was going on, and I started to understand how the politics of these things work, how the media and justice work together to take down independent business owners and things like this, and so I, as opposed to getting upset about it and for the other people involved, I just decided to get informed, because that's how I respond to challenges, you know.

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Speaker 2: So it started it at the high point of it all here and then went into a more academic form over the last couple of years, just because I'm quite good at keeping information and then kind of churning it out again.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, and that's what being an academic is really Wow.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when you were learning the ins and outs of that, did you really see like obviously you go through like laws and all that sort of set of stuff and what there's sort of like in a society is created?

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Speaker 1: So far it is from back then.

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Speaker 1: It's changed so much until now because of a lot of number of different things with the Me Too movement and different sort of scenarios that I've played out.

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Speaker 1: Did you see anything when you were learning much about it?

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Speaker 1: Did you see much of like say like I can't believe this is actually the way it is?

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Speaker 1: Did you see any sort of discrepancies?

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Speaker 1: And I mean, how did you tackle?

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Speaker 2: that it quickly became obvious how, if you have an interested person in authority, be it a police officer or a judge well, not so much judge, so just any kind of investigator or a journalist increasingly these days how their interest is in basically demonizing people and how you can kind of create a case against people without evidence.

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Speaker 2: And so we started to work out how to do this and to kind of connect the connect the points between how that can happen from allegation to the police just being interested in conviction targets to the authorities just wanting a place closed down to the local press, then exploding it and destroying a person's legacy and that happens on a very small scale, like all around the country every day, up to the big stories like the Weinsteins and the brands and things like that.

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Speaker 2: So that all that fascinated me because it's like an art form in itself and it's very, very ugly and destructive for the person.

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Speaker 2: But you know you want to analyze what's going on and why.

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Speaker 2: Then I'm still doing it and I got the support of Dr Michael Norton, who's the Mr Carrages of Justice Expert of the country up in Bristol, as two work together very closely on this, and he got me to be there till last year, so I've got some expert help.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's what was great.

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Speaker 1: You've got a lot of backing as well, yeah, and especially someone so high profile, which is it's great.

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Speaker 1: So I mean going through like when you were first starting and all that sort of stuff, and you were learning about the current I would say the current status, with certain like laws and such like that.

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Speaker 1: What you're obviously going through like you're learning this, you're seeing it, you're understanding it.

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Speaker 1: Did you not notice it more about demoralizing sort of thing?

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Speaker 1: When you look at it, you sit there and go.

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Speaker 1: If this is what it's like people are not got a chance or were you more motivated to make change?

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Speaker 2: It seems really really kind of demoralizing, exactly as you say, and quite quickly you start to become like a mentor for the mothers of the accused, as we call them mothers, and the sisters and the brothers who are actually the ones who tend to get in contact with you to try and look for a way through.

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Speaker 2: So you try and help them in as rational a way as you can to be resilient and also explain basically that it's not personal.

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Speaker 2: These things feel really personal when they're happening, but the fact is they're being kind of weaponized against people for political reasons and once people realize that especially for people that I knew going through it, a lot of the pain of it goes away, because you start to realize that it's targets or a promotion or a political edge that people are after doesn't stop you holding them to account, but it just means that the whole thing becomes less personalized.

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Speaker 2: And that's the way to handle professional problems, isn't it?

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Speaker 2: Or these kind of life, life problems.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if that answered you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, not completely.

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Speaker 1: It's a great way of putting it really to be quite honest with you, because it's such a touchy subject that a lot of people, as soon as you hear it, they don't want to touch it, because it's obviously certain aspects of it.

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Speaker 1: It's like, well, because you've seen the amount of, I wouldn't say the media, I like to say I've always they always like to run with stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: And even if it's, as you mentioned before, if it's false and it's just accusations being made, but it's struggling once the media gets hold of it and runs with it.

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Speaker 1: How's that?

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Speaker 1: Even if it's false, how is that person ever going to get back from that Because of, obviously, the high profiled attention they've had?

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Speaker 1: Have you experienced like a much sort of like people really not really recovering from it?

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Speaker 2: That's a really interesting point because what Dr Norton and I have noticed is that basically without wanting to dim, degrade anything or to minimize is the term anything Almost every other guy's gone through it now has been accused of something serious, either sexual or domestic violence or harassment or bullying, something like this Almost every other guy's gone through because it's been so normalized and so the more that happens, the less impact these things are having and are going to have and it just becomes like another story.

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Speaker 2: That's why just this year we've seen Scofield after Edwards, after Brand, after Tate, because they're trying to ramp these things up in basically what's a political agenda against men, I'm afraid to say and to try to recognize that in a we're very equality feminist, in Embarring the Innocent.

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Speaker 2: There's no, we're not in the men's rights movement, it's nothing like that that.

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Speaker 2: We support the rights of men.

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Speaker 2: We're not like strident about it, we're just into equality and we're in a position now where we don't have equality.

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Speaker 2: So we're just trying to get a bit of that and up in your neck of the woods.

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Speaker 2: Mr Stuart Weighton at the University of Abbottay is an absolutely soldier on this subject.

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Speaker 2: He's absolutely brilliant.

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Speaker 2: So just for you, you're other kind of the viewers to have a look at him.

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Speaker 2: He does amazing work.

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Speaker 1: Stuart Weighton.

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Speaker 1: It's true, wes and I I give a little bit of a deep dive into that.

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Speaker 1: I love doing the research, so I wouldn't say I'm sorry, like yourself, but I've not got the attention span, unfortunately.

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Speaker 1: I just like to learn stuff, hence the reason why I like doing stuff like this.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned about it's easy for the accuser to accuse, if that makes sense, other people.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think it's so easy and why do you think it actually holds so much weight with so little evidence?

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Speaker 2: Because essentially, for 50 years, the political forces of identity politics have been working towards the Equality Act, which was passed in 2010, all across this nation, and so with that it meant that equality was established between the sexes, and between disabled and racists and everything else, and if you said anything, you'd be done for hate speech or misogyny or something.

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Speaker 2: Oh, not misogyny so much, but you know your entire speech and the way of behaving was equalized.

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Speaker 2: So equality was gained in law, and so once you've got that, it means that they need something else to work on, because all of their identity is invested in this, and so they imported the Title IX policy over to the UK from the US, which is campus rape epidemic how to handle what was seen as the campus rape epidemic in the USA, which was to handle them by inter-university tribunals as opposed to going to the police and to judge them there in the uni, which is anti-initial right.

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Speaker 2: But they were doing that and they brought that over here now, with Operation Soteria getting a little bit complex.

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Speaker 2: But how they've done things since the Equality Act is to go through Title IX into Me Too, always co-opting the media and using that as a tool for justice, and the media shouldn't be a tool for justice is what Empowering the Innocent are saying.

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Speaker 2: So just trying to connect the dots here for you.

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Speaker 1: God, yeah, do you know what the media is?

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Speaker 1: They're a bunch of bastards, aren't they?

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Speaker 1: They just make it so complicated and they just make things worse for everyone involved.

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Speaker 1: To be quite honest with you, you mentioned about, obviously, the Act 2010,.

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Speaker 1: Sort of like the Act that you mentioned there it was, I can't remember the name, sorry, just off the top of my head.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that's made things better or worse since that's been brought?

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Speaker 2: into play the Equality Act.

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Speaker 2: This is what it's called Equality Act.

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Speaker 2: That's it, yeah, and in essence, like all these things, the ideals are good, the ideals are positive, everybody be the same, everyone gets the same outcomes.

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Speaker 2: But the reality is that you can be a twisted-minded person from any direction and establish yourself at the top of a company, do an allegation against him, against the other person in there, get his job and then declare everybody has to be able to identify as another sex and if they don't, they'll be sent to prison for not agreeing.

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Speaker 2: That is what most sensible people would consider to be an abuse of an Equality Act.

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Speaker 2: That is happening.

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Speaker 2: And, by the way, I don't care about labels anymore If I get called a transphobe or homophobe or anything else.

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Speaker 2: I'm so past all that because I've received quite a lot of it.

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Speaker 2: I don't give a shit anymore, but it's like that will be used because of how they are using the Equality Act, and that's all amplified in social media, of course.

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Speaker 2: So it's everybody's battered by it.

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Speaker 2: When they come out publicly and say, hey, I've done this, a bunch of people will say, no, you haven't you shitted, and just get battered by that.

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Speaker 2: So that's the kind of stuff that I write about too, because it's fascinating as well, I guess it's like the social aspect of everything is.

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Speaker 1: People just fascinate me.

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Speaker 1: In general, I can understand that.

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Speaker 1: It's just the way, the way the act about certain things and how they evolve, with just one act that comes in and then all of a sudden it just blows up out of all proportions and they just take a little small part of it.

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Speaker 1: They don't understand the rest of it.

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Speaker 1: That obviously explains in a lot more detail.

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Speaker 1: They just take one small smidgen of it and think that's the gospel.

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Speaker 1: But, as you mentioned before, it's not.

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Speaker 1: It's just that it's completely complete.

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Speaker 1: It all works really sometime.

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Speaker 1: It's based with the context.

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Speaker 1: You have to have context by yourself to understand it and all these people do understand it more than anything.

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Speaker 1: The walk culture, sean.

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Speaker 1: That's what we're in nowadays, aren't we?

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Speaker 1: We're in some sort of like you can't say anything, you can't do anything and you can't look anywhere in case you get like lambasted and smashed all over TikTok and YouTube and Facebook and stuff.

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Speaker 1: And if we're so careful nowadays to do anything, it's good.

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Speaker 1: As I said, we yet to protect other people, like women and men and all that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 1: But, as you mentioned before, you get so many false allegations for people who just don't know what you're doing.

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Speaker 2: And it's also a useful thing.

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Speaker 2: If you've got the open arms to handle it and you don't care, you can actually use the abuse.

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Speaker 2: What Mr Elon Musk has done with X is to basically, if the amount of abuse you get as a public figure, you'll be able to weaponise it now and turn each abuse into a dollar.

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Speaker 2: So he's actually managed to do that, which is unbelievably twisted, but also what it needs to have done.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, he's getting a lot of.

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Speaker 1: He's got a lot of hate for that, isn't he?

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Speaker 1: Because before the book just was Twitter X now is now called.

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Speaker 1: It's like the Wild West now, isn't it?

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Speaker 1: It's like everything's going on.

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Speaker 1: You've got everything you've got, like a pollen is getting pushed up there.

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Speaker 1: You've got a racism, transphobia, you've got everything under there and nothing's been shut down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy.

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Speaker 2: There's quite a lot of stuff on there, but also it always sort of has been there.

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Speaker 2: It's just now, it is the Wild West, but it's actually good and you can unfollow and block and mute, and I do that all the time when I, if a person is just getting boring basically it isn't the other stuff you mentioned that bothers me, but if a person's boring I mute them, you know, and it's like, oh, shut up, and then you try to find your own liberal navigation way through it.

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Speaker 2: But the reactions on it and the identity, identity politics, I've got a lot to answer for and it's actually what we're up against.

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Speaker 2: You know, we really are up against that term and that's what we're doing in a parallel, innocent now almost all the time.

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Speaker 1: What's the with the parallel innocent?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what's the you mentioned about that?

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Speaker 1: You just said there.

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Speaker 1: What's the main issue that you guys are coming across?

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Speaker 1: Is there like an ongoing trend that you see all the time that you're coming up against?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, kind of historically, Dr Norton was working on kind of IRA cases and, like you know, wow, yes, stuff from the sort of from the late 90s, the troubles up into this century, and he was working on the Birmingham 6, go through four these kind of things Right and in time, especially after the Equality Act and then COVID and all that decade that we just gone through, he started to understand how, basically the 2003 sort of sex laws and the criminal justice bill in England and Wales not sure about Scotland so much, but I'm sure they're very, very connected closely they are Were brought in by Tony Blair's people, by New Labour, and they are just so broad as to make the subject of sexual harassment absolutely everything from a violent rape situation which makes everybody go ah, to a touch on the knee, and he's kind of.

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Speaker 2: You know, we've been trying to work out, as you say, people don't want to go there, it's frightening.

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Speaker 2: Well, they absolutely use that, they completely depend on the fact that no one wants to talk about it, and the good thing about being academics is that we go there and we don't care and we cite a setting, and you know that has to be done because of what they're doing when the politics in the media get as integrated as they are, as up to us and sort of podcasts like this, this kind of communication, which is not off-com, you know, it's very, very important.

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Speaker 2: We regulate, we're actually able to talk and communicate and we're not about to get anyone in trouble.

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Speaker 2: That's not the game.

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Speaker 2: The game is to analyse and to discuss that in a fun way you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, of course I mean that's a good thing about having a sort of platform like podcasts, because it isn't regulated, you can't have people telling you what you can and what you can say.

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Speaker 1: It's like an open forum sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: And I think people don't understand that podcasts is probably one of the only channels you can do that.

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Speaker 1: You know you can't do it on platforms like Facebook or video, because you're going to get kicked off.

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Speaker 1: All these social media's are going to get kicked off.

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Speaker 1: You know, all these podcasts.

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Speaker 1: This is the only time you can actually open and actually speak freely.

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Speaker 1: And that's why a lot, probably a lot of people are starting to kind of flock towards this sort of avenue of creating, because staying away from the mainstream media sort of thing, away from the news, because you don't know what's revealing, what's not and come to podcast and come listen to us.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about it.

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Speaker 1: You know it's great, absolutely I love it.

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Speaker 1: It's really positive.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen it?

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 1: I mean to think that this is a positive thing, but there is also a lot of negative sort of like kind of understanding of all this sort of side of things.

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Speaker 1: I mentioned before that a lot of people don't really like talking about it, but do you think it does happen?

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Speaker 1: A lot of false accusations are made, a lot of people lie, a lot of people lives are ruined and all that sort of side of stuff.

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Speaker 1: It seems so ingrained and so easy to really go down that sort of route.

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Speaker 1: Do you think we're too far gone as a society because we're so used to it to change it, or do you think there is actually a way out of like kind of the way we think and the way we act, around these sort of scenarios?

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Speaker 2: In 2009-10, keir Starmer, as the Director of Public Prosecutions, introduced the policy of to believe the victim to the Crown Prosecution Service.

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Speaker 2: So, basically, you didn't need evidence.

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Speaker 2: All of the emphasis of a trial would go on to what the supposed victim would say, and they've already given the frame in the title.

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Speaker 2: There isn't a victim until the verdict's been called, there's complainance and she's accused, but he.

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Speaker 2: For the last 15 years, the criminal justice system has been taken over by his ideology.

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Speaker 2: The public don't know it, because nobody knows about the criminal justice system until you've gone through it.

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Speaker 2: Um, really and so.

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Speaker 2: But now so many of the mothers of the accusers I call them have gone through it and lots of people have been to prison, have come out of prison and have gone through some sort of fire or that.

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Speaker 2: They've had their business closed down or had the legacy destroyed.

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Speaker 2: You know, loads of people are like this, and very few monsters out there I can tell you.

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Speaker 2: You know, I communicate with all kinds of people all the time.

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Speaker 2: There's not monsters, they're just people being shafted by various forces, and so what needs to change is for the believes, the victim thing, to be restored to objectivity, which Kier, a couple of years ago said well, that's what we did in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, you didn't, because it's still existing, because it's very useful for the female vote.

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Speaker 2: But the female vote is actually becoming slightly changed now because of the mothers of the accusers, many people.

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Speaker 2: You are going well, I don't believe with a bunch of young women just because they're saying it, because they've seen Amber Heard and etc.

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Speaker 2: Not just picking on Amber, but that kind of thinking going everywhere.

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Speaker 2: It's basically giving the keys to the prison to a bunch of toddlers and say just go and do whatever you want.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's not the way that a liberal democracy should go.

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Speaker 2: So we're working on bringing the victim back to normal, which is, investigate the story, because the police haven't been doing that.

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Speaker 1: You've just been jumping straight towards the obviously the accuser, and so it's like it's the old school phrase, it's like it's a little democracy, and it's like the courts, it's like innocent until proven guilty.

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Speaker 1: It's completely opposite in this sort of scenario, isn't it Exactly?

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Speaker 1: But it's just so you're straight, it's like you're guilty, prove, prove your innocence.

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Speaker 1: Then you're like I shouldn't need to sort of thing, you know.

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Speaker 2: That's it.

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Speaker 2: That's and that's exactly the same thing as the people say that not a lot of rapes are kind of convicted, but it's not the case.

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Speaker 2: Once they get past the bar to go to court which is not many of them, because most of them are false allegations or spurious allegations the ones that do get, the 2%, get to it.

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Speaker 2: 75% of the people that then go to it are convicted, so there isn't a lower raise at all.

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Speaker 2: That's the reality behind the stats, which is always quite difficult to, because all the stats are very twisted up and can be done with whatever you want to do with them, but that's the reality, what I just told you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it depends on who you're talking to what stats they come out with.

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Speaker 1: Really, is it a exactly?

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Speaker 2: we're committed to not being like that with imparing the innocent.

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Speaker 2: We are really committed to objectivity within it.

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Speaker 2: You know, because there's so much bullshit.

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Speaker 1: I mean they could see like, for instance, like someone is going through this sort of scenario right now, falsely accused.

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Speaker 1: What would what someone would you do?

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Speaker 1: What sort of what would you advise that person to do?

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Speaker 1: What?

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Speaker 1: How would you?

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Speaker 1: Let I tell them, say, right, this is what you need to do?

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Speaker 2: Well, hopefully they've got a lawyer or a good lawyer that they trust and like, because they've had something in their life before where they have a person they can trust, that helps.

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Speaker 2: If they don't, it's just normal.

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Speaker 2: The first thing, as I've just sort of talked earlier, is don't take it personally.

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Speaker 2: It feels very personal, but it's probably much more political than that.

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Speaker 2: So there's, there's a person that's got an edge.

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Speaker 2: You're aware of it, they know, and also there's a lot more sympathy than you think out there, because loads of people have gone through it.

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Speaker 2: They just don't talk about it and the problem with this is the the absence of transparency.

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Speaker 2: So, which is why we try to be as transparent as we can at ETI, you know, and and just to realize it's not personal and they'll probably get through it and be fine.

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Speaker 2: And once they are through it, there'll be people in their ear saying happen to me as well, mate, don't worry about it.

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Speaker 2: This is the reality.

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Speaker 2: It's a learning experience.

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Speaker 2: Like everything in life is a learning experience, this is as well, and then again they might have done it as well, which is can't be ignored of course.

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Speaker 1: Of course you have to go through the most.

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Speaker 1: Make sure you haven't done it.

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Speaker 1: If you have done it, I'll be going to fucking jail you bastard.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't done it, there's obviously, there's obviously help there for you.

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Speaker 1: So I think, do you think it's going to change any tension?

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Speaker 2: Well, the fact that, as I was sort of saying earlier, they got all these stories out this year indicates a degree of panic and the things that they're doing to various sort of people in the public sphere this year, trying to just destroy everyone.

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Speaker 2: They really are panicking about social media and not being able to control the narrative and that panic can only be a good thing because it means that we're going towards some kind of retribution and just a reckoning of how things should be.

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Speaker 2: Mr Andy Malkinson, I guess you guys would have got that case up in Scotland, possibly just earlier in the summer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: It was a release that exonerated after 17 years of being inside for a rape he didn't commit, proven by DNA and his message, and greater Manchester Police was sitting on evidence for 15 years and the courts just ignored it.

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Speaker 2: So it's very, very obvious how these things can be manipulated.

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Speaker 2: So we were come.

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Speaker 2: That kind of thing happening again and again is going to make people go hang on.

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Speaker 2: There's something wrong here and that's what we're doing in Paranignesian, supported by University of Bristol.

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Speaker 2: So we're very I don't say supported, like their, their sponsors, but as academics we have to put things in their fact checker, you know, and the fact checker and because that's what top to Michael does.

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Speaker 2: I'm a bit more of a scribe, I'm a bit more colorful.

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Speaker 2: He's facts, you know he, he saw everything.

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Speaker 1: I behind it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's very powerful Once you have that sort of like, I would say backing.

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Speaker 1: But that's sort of like.

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Speaker 1: You know, I system like university a very high profile university as well you can use to like.

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Speaker 1: It gives you a lot of legitimacy, so it's like, so it gives you a lot of pool.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's best.

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Speaker 1: In certain cases, do you what's the the, the, the, the, the fact that you've got is it?

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Speaker 1: How do you operate?

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Speaker 1: Do you get cases?

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Speaker 1: Do you go and look for them to?

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Speaker 1: People come to you asking about certain sales?

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Speaker 1: How does it actually work?

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Speaker 2: There's a couple of sources out there where, like with the falsely accused support organization face, so on X and Twitter, that they've got the social media platform these days.

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Speaker 2: So in the past they get on the phone because they're panicking and scared.

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Speaker 2: Now it's slightly more going to send an email and eventually it will come through to me or Michael and we will discuss the case, say what happened to this person.

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Speaker 2: And now they're coming from all over the world.

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Speaker 2: We've got a bunch of stuff from America.

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Speaker 2: So we're oh, wow, yeah, we're not going to close down the walls just because of and it's very good for comparative studies, because we're not solicitors, we are reporters of the side that's not heard in the media.

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Speaker 2: That's what's important to remember.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're not there to get people off and we're not paid in that way.

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Speaker 2: So it's like we're there to put the side which is ignored, because we're very aware almost everything that you read about stuff.

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Speaker 2: Mr Luke Mitchell up in York, part of the world.

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Speaker 2: I did an interview about him with his biggest supporter and this is a very sensitive story up in Scotland, so I'm very careful to go there, but we are very much looking at his case as well.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, mostly do your classes like investigators sort of thing, aren't you?

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Speaker 1: That's our canal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the bleak Sam, you think we just hear what what the person's got to say and we check that with the things that have been said about it in court and in the press and media.

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Speaker 2: We ask them how they feel about it and it's usually angry, and so then I'll edit their story into something publishable where it's good to read.

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Speaker 2: You know, and that's basically the process and all these stories, from fraud to sex stuff to all kinds of other things to murder, you know there's all sorts of things that will represent because people have rights and they forget that.

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Speaker 1: Of course.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I tell you you're getting more and more busy as the, as you start to get a bit of notoriety sort of things, you get a.

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Speaker 1: You add on date with emails.

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Speaker 1: Right, there is it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, little Kyrie now.

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Speaker 2: People have a habit after the Storm Cloud had passed, they often scurry away to get on with their lives, completely understandably.

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Speaker 2: So a lot of people who would come to us don't because of that and we don't kind of blame them.

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Speaker 2: But there are some more persistent ones and really special cases which will just seem obvious and we'll go and talk to them.

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Speaker 2: We'll approach them, then approach us, and it just makes sense to tell their story.

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Speaker 2: They're all there on the full saligations watch and some articles about big characters and articles about little characters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, mr Jeremy Bamber, mr Clive Freeman, robin Garber all these characters are there on Files, saligations Watch or CCRC Watch, under the Empowering the Innocent umbrella, and we be right about them.

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Speaker 2: There's lots of Scottish things, by the way, because we got obviously Scotland's, scotland's, scotland business.

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Speaker 2: There is a massive part of his islands, right, so that's a good thing about things no it's not more of a real thing.

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Speaker 2: I can tell you that you know there's such a reality.

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Speaker 1: Area for Scottish you know it's just a crazy one, isn't it?

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Speaker 1: So I mean, you've heard that's recent one as well, the famous football or Mason Greenwood, so you've heard that this really hit the headlines, you know, and he's said he's now really he took a hell of a beating really to be fair, because nothing was really proven.

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Speaker 1: So I think, have you looked at that case quite closely about?

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Speaker 1: Have you followed that at all?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's so hot on the trending that we tend to come into things after they've stopped trending, in a sense that he's created this incredible sort of fufufufu Rory in the way that the Depth Heard case did.

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Speaker 2: You know he's always there in the sidebar.

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Speaker 2: Basically, in answer to your question, it's almost too high profile for us because it's a pop story in football.

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Speaker 2: I'd be very happy to go there, but the fact is that he hasn't even said that it wasn't him.

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Speaker 2: It's just that, what does that sound like and what was it?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not going to pontificate on a fact, on a case that I don't know as much as I should be about, but you know he's.

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Speaker 2: They both got our sympathy as well, of course.

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Speaker 1: Of course I like it.

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Speaker 1: I like the answer.

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Speaker 1: The answer is very sensible, especially why it's so high profile.

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Speaker 1: I don't play with you.

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Speaker 1: I don't play with you at all.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, what's the future looking like for you guys at the minute?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what's, what's what you're looking to achieve?

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Speaker 2: Well, the main issue like to believe the victims thing I was talking to you about to get that back to normal is actually achieved in.

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Speaker 2: In fact, they're not supposed to be doing that anymore, however, they still are, and if you read a press report, they'll say victim, victim, victim, victim everywhere, and you're like there aren't any.

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Speaker 2: All of your viewers, every time they read that in the paper, should realize there aren't any until the verdict is called.

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Speaker 2: Then there is one red and then even not when it's been a miscarriage of justice, andy Markinson.

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Speaker 2: So, of course, that terminology, the language of all these things.

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Speaker 2: We really want to work on that.

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Speaker 2: And then the 2003 sex law stuff, where they've basically inverted the principle of Innocent or proving guilty.

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Speaker 2: We want to hold the MPs to that and say do you realise what's been done?

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Speaker 2: Because it takes 15-20 years for this stuff to come through the system and that's why it's coming through now and you're seeing case after case after case, while the world is becoming homogenised in terms of you know, the global situation, not to get too far down in the rabbit hole, but it's becoming difficult to assert your judicial independence.

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Speaker 2: Britain's quite good at doing that, so we, including Scotland, have to keep saying, including Scotland, which is rubbish, isn't it?

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, as we've got until we aren't.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's like we are good at being alone and saying this is what we're doing.

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Speaker 2: So we actually want to create a bit more of that spirit in empowering the innocent, just standing up for yourself, basically, in the face of the law and in the face of being called all kinds of stuff.

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Speaker 1: You know it's only words and it's only labels, it seems, if you're fighting a good fight and you're fighting the voiceless sort of thing, I like to say that's sort of a scenario sort of thing which is it's a nice little allergy there, an allergy, I should say I like that.

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Speaker 1: You could use that.

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Speaker 1: If you want, sean, you could use.

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Speaker 1: That Sounds good to me.

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Speaker 1: It's a voiceless, nice.

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Speaker 1: But so obviously I've got you for a better note.

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Speaker 1: So where can people feign more about what yourself does and all that sort of thing?

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Speaker 1: Where can people reach in?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if they want to buy my own books which are about culture, the music and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: And the last book I did earlier this year was called Compelling Speech, the Stammering Enigma, which is about the stammer that I have that your guests will have worked out by now and I actually wrote this little autobiography earlier in the year about it.

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Speaker 2: I'm quite open about it.

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Speaker 2: So I touch on lots of things in culture, including things like that.

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Speaker 2: So that's there on my Amazon page, sean BW Parker, and they can go and buy that or have a little look at it.

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Speaker 2: And then, if they want to get into the cases we're talking about tonight, they can go to false allegations.

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Speaker 2: Watch on Google and it will come up there.

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Speaker 2: It's a Wix site WIX and they can go and see about all these cases we've been talking about Fantastic.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, if you're listening, we are.

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Speaker 1: If you look at the description, we'll put all the links that Sean was talking about straight to them so you can get to them for your convenience, and that's what I like to do, you know.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, sean, it's been an absolute pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking time out for having a chat and obviously I'll tell you what you do and everything about the ANLI and all that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate that.

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Speaker 1: It's great.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully we get more people coming forward to yourself or, hopefully, more recognition for what you guys do.

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Speaker 1: It's a fantastic thing you guys are doing and, yeah, fingers crossed, we can fight the good fight and do what you can for the guys and girls out there.

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Speaker 1: Voice for the voiceless.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much, ryan.

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Speaker 2: Lovely.